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Is Chivalry Dead? (Civil Discussion) posted: 03/29/09 at 3:42 PM
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I was talking with my father yesterday and he feels that chivalry is dead and that the younger generation is getting less considerate and more rude.
I wonder if it has a lot to do with a stronger independence in women. Some women are very against men opening doors, helping them move things or paying for meals. I wonder if this is upsetting the balance of gender roles. What could a man give, if a woman refuses every gift he offers to woo her? I don't really believe in the roles that the woman has to be stuck in the kitchen raising babies and the man has to be the bread winner. Those roles can be shared equally. I know that mentality is not practical to today's society and that is not what I mean.
However the roles of ladies and gentlemen and the courtesy between them is starting to diminish because the formal dance to attain each other in mutual respect is being muddled. Then you got the other side which are total jerks who do nothing for women at all. Yet still get rewarded with the woman sticking around, caring for his every move. On that side, women have too little respect for themselves.
I don't think chivalry is totally dead, but I think its starting to die out. However I don't really date guys that aren't traditional and don't have manners. So I can't always tell.
What do you think?
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if death is but a dream
then don't let me...
...fall asleep
- Leaving Entropia
Pain of Salvation
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posted: 03/29/09 at 3:50 PM
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In some cases, men don't receive the training or pick up on the messages that it is important to be gentlemen. I had to tell my husband that I appreciate when he opens a door for me for instance (when he didn't open the door for me). My ex-husband was a total gentleman and I'll tell you, it has been interesting learning to be with someone who doesn't have "gentleman" in his DNA.
My older daughter has talked to me about it as well because she says that none of the guys she knows is anything like her father (my ex-). And while we don't like everything about the guy, that's one area we both appreciate. We don't need someone to do those things, but we like how it feels to be treated that way.
And we're both highly independent.
I think in some ways it is up to us to instill these things in the men we come into contact with if it is something that we value.
Personally, I don't want to be with someone who is a clod from the get go. And that's how I think of men without manners.
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posted: 03/29/09 at 4:13 PM
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I also think Alot of children in todays society, are spoiled and werent taught manners at home. I know all my kids teachers, or their friends parents, Were shocked how well mannered and polite my kids are,..
I think if more parents actually took the time, to teach their kids manners and showed them how to be respectful, to others, then their wouldnt be so many rude, ignorants wise mouthed kids, who disrespect everyone and everything, Todays youth werent raised like the generations before, They think they know everything and they think they should have everything and when they dont get it, they treat everyone like crap, teachers, cops, etc.. There's so many problems becuz, of todays youths, because they Just DONT CARE!!
they dont care about anybody, just themselves.. Its sad but true..
And then these youths growup, without the proper guidance and teachings, or discipline and they cause alot more problems, or crimes..
Thats just my observation, on todays society, another thing is people dont know how to date anymore, They dont know the meaning and they endup confused, as to why doesnt he act like this, or why doesnt he do that?? They confuse dating to having a commitment, and end up having sex too early, in the relationship, and Now they dont know what the relationship, really is.. IDK, there's alot of reasons, why people act like they do and not like they did generations ago..Mostly its becuz, of their upringing, and society..
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posted: 03/29/09 at 4:32 PM
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Well It has a lot to do with discipline too with today's kids. Parents just don't follow through all the time. Manners and teaching kids respect starts very early. By the time kids are 10, they start breaking away and need a base to go off of. It becomes harder to change that as they start attaining their independence.
And you are right lemonpledge, men don't have to do those things, but it is nice when they do. I think men should be appreciated when they do them too regardless if its necessary.
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if death is but a dream
then don't let me...
...fall asleep
- Leaving Entropia
Pain of Salvation
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posted: 03/29/09 at 4:56 PM
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I also think it is dying and it is quite sad. My SO is very polite, he opens doors for females, helps to carry their things etc and I appreciate it a lot. But I also think it's not just the men who should be polite and helpful to others, I always hold a door if I see someone coming, if I see a female struggling with bags, I'll help them, and if I ask my best friend to come and have a girlie chat night out I'll gladly pay for them (and they'd pay the next time).
I've never been any good at making a point, but oh well.
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[i]"Who, being loved, is poor?" ~ Oscar Wilde[i]
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posted: 03/29/09 at 5:13 PM
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Thats true withoutwings, I do the same thing. If I see some one struggling, I will ask if they need help. I always open doors for those in wheelchairs or have their hands full. I even help out older women when they ask me to get something from the top shelf. Ive given strangers jumps on their cars, etc.
I think courtesy is important in many other ways.
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if death is but a dream
then don't let me...
...fall asleep
- Leaving Entropia
Pain of Salvation
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posted: 03/29/09 at 7:44 PM
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I agree with your original points. I think hardcore feminism is upsetting the gender roles as well. Its one thing to be an independent woman, but its completely another thing too be offended at someone when all they are trying to do is be polite.
I think its just one of those problems of society today along with many others. But I also think we have come far as a society as well. We live in a much more "equal" society. Sexism and racial discrimination and such are less prevalent. I would take the equality that we have attained over past generations than some of these problems we have today.
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“Tere dil main meri saanson ko panaa mil jaye, tere ishq main meri jaan fanaa hojaye.”
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posted: 03/29/09 at 7:52 PM
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There's a difference between hardcore feminism and people who use feminism as a cover for hating men or themselves. I really tend to blame the latter rather than the former.
Some of the problems we have today are the result of people not knowing what they are supposed to do without those rigid gender roles. We're damned with 'em and darned without 'em.
I think men do have it worse in this regard however. All it takes is one woman who is offended by an opened door to make a guy gun shy. This is part of educating our young men, however. I'm sure that same woman who was offended by his opening the door would be cussing him out if he allowed the door to shut immediately behind him so he would lose no matter what. Remembering that it is better to be cursed for doing the right thing than the wrong is also a good lesson.
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posted: 03/29/09 at 9:19 PM
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| I agree it's like children aren't taught to be polite. My brother won't think twice to open a door for someone else, but my husband always opens a door for me- insists on taking in all the groceries, and so on. I've always told my brother it's polite to open the door for people, but he's 17 and just doesn't think I guess. I think it has to do more with how you are raised than generational- and whenever someone opens the door for me I ALWAYS say thank you. My husband has opened the door for women he doesn't know and they don't even nod or say thank you- I'm like wow now that is rude- and definitely many of those women are my husband's age or older- so I think that rudeness is not generational.
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posted: 03/29/09 at 9:57 PM
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About 2 years ago, I was having this talk with a guy in my class. He was saying that there are more than a few women who get offended by such gestures. Half the other women just walk right by without a thank you, a glance, no eye contact, nothing. So he said he started doing it less and less. It just wasn't worth it anymore.
I think women should do these things to. I get men holding doors for me all the time, but I hardly ever have a girl extend the same courtesy. Just because you're female doesn't make it any less rude to let a door slam in my face!
My boyfriend was raised by parents who would smack him if he didn't pull out my chair for me. But on the other hand, if I got to the door first, I'm not going to just stand there and wait for him to open it. Then when I do, I hold it for him.
I don't know if having manners is looked down upon by male peers is the cause or not.
There may be something to that too. I have some friends who say their boyfriends are only like that around their buddies. But in other situations, he is a complete gentleman.
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"If you really put a small value upon yourself, rest assured that the world will not raise your price." -Annonymous
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posted: 03/29/09 at 11:51 PM
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I agree with Mrs. Combs, in the sense that some women refuse it, in order to not be seen as weak, and I also agree with what Lemon Pledge said:
"Some of the problems we have today are the result of people not knowing what they are supposed to do without those rigid gender roles. We're damned with 'em and darned without 'em. "
Is like, chivalry didnt evolve with society...it got stuck in it being an icon of something only weak women seek out, and/or that only the guys whose girlfriends dominate over them do. It is also a matter of education, in this society, where it is all about the "me first! me first!" it seems parents have forgotten that a nice set of manners, and a few considerations, take you farther down the road, make us feel connected to those around us, even if it is for a second, and is even psychologically positive, as one gets the feeling of doing something nice, just because, and that is always good.
Is not about being the most mannered person out there, but every now and then, treating people with some consideration, is always nice and helps us keep it together, as a society.
and when it comes to courtship? Who isn't impressed to see that you know how to treat a woman...? And what a nice surprise when a guy finds out that he doesn't have to always pay for dinner, that she actually isn't as frivolous as to believe she is worthy of considerations, but not so stuck up as to not practice them with him.
Chivalry is dying, cause we believe that it only has to be practiced on one side of society, and since we are in an "equal" society now, it has no place.
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posted: 03/30/09 at 12:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by sailor
However, just because I am a woman, I do not feel that men should treat me "chivalrously." I don't think they need to open my door or pull out my chair or pay for me or buy me things. I don't do these things for men, so why should they do it for me just because I'm a woman? I'm all for equal treatment across the board.
lol I was waiting for your reply Sailor and I agree with you in that respect. I don't think women or men should expect "chivalrous" behavior from their partners, respect is what should be expected. However, it’s just common courtesy for stuff like holding the door. Man or woman, it doesn't matter, both genders can try to be considerate of each other.
Personally, I don't really care if one displays such courteous behavior or not, its not a big deal. As you said, respect is what matters. I was brought up to be considerate in public so I just do what I learned from my parents. But what gets to me is that I have to hear some say stuff like "I can hold the door myself" in a rude tone. I'm sorry I was trying to be polite. The fact that you are a woman is irrelevant to me, had it been a man I would have been considerate and held the door either way.
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“Tere dil main meri saanson ko panaa mil jaye, tere ishq main meri jaan fanaa hojaye.”
Last edited by Cloud1212 on 03/30/09 at 12:59 AM
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posted: 03/30/09 at 6:03 AM
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Have you ever had it happen where a man holds the door for you but you're a good 50 feet behind him??? Ugh I HATE that! You feel like you have to run to catch the door! lol
Anyways, I think chivalry is definitely on the decline. I also agree that it is a result of the behavior of men, women, and society as a whole. I believe I'm perfectly capable of opening my own door, but it's still nice when a man does it. I think it is important that people at least LEARN the etiquette known as chivalry. I think boys should be aware of the tradition of ladies first, and paying for her meal, etc., but I don't think it should be expected of him all the time.
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I love life & having someone to share it with!
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posted: 03/30/09 at 2:31 PM
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I think chivalry is dying, in part because it is not being taught or demonstrated with any regularity.
More importantly, I think selfishness has been creeping into society at such an alarming rate that chivalry doesn't stand much of a chance. By selfishness, I mostly mean an intense focus on oneself and their interests.
People are so focused on I pods, cellphones, PDA's, and the like that they aren't even really aware of what's going on around them. That, and everyone's in such a rush.
When you say thank you to someone, what's often the usual response? "No problem." This just sounds very dismissive to me. It's indicative of the general attitude. Luckily, there are exceptions. Some of us are still fighting the good fight!
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The opinion contained in this post is just that - an opinion. Awesome, and most likely absolutely correct, but still just an opinion.
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posted: 03/30/09 at 3:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by LemonPledge
Manners are not being gendered in this discussion, Misty.
I'm late in replying, so I think this has already been addressed- as I understand it, "chivalry" is specifically about men performing acts of service (holding doors and such) for women, specifically because of gender. And then several of the posts above mine talked about what parents teach their children about manners and politeness and such. If that's not what the OP intended by chivalry, let me know 
Regardless, I'm right on board with sailor in that I think everyone should show graciousness to anyone else, whatever their gender is. I'll hold a door for a man, woman, or kid. If anyone held a door for me, I'd say "thank you."
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